Christian state: A country in which Christianity is declared the official religion.
Secular state: A country in which there is a separation of church and state and no religion has more official status than any other:
This is undoubtedly the toughest article I have ever written, and the saddest. Because I feel that it is my duty to strongly criticise the head of the largest Christian church in Fiji – the Methodist Church – and the man who holds the position once held by my late father. I believe that I am reflecting the views of many people in the country when I say that I am aghast at the comments made in an interview with Radio Australia by the Reverend Tuikilakila Waqairatu, the new President of the Methodist Church in Fiji. By calling for Fiji to be officially declared a Christian state, Mr Waqairatu has shown himself to be misguided, intolerant and a threat to race relations and good governance in Fiji. The extreme nature of his comments mark him out as a rogue religious leader at the head of a rogue church. He is, quite simply, a menace.
It is one thing for Mr Waqairatu to say – as he did – that the Methodist Church does not recognise the legitimacy of the Bainimarama Government. This places the Methodists on yet another serious collision course with the state. It also places it on a collision course with many of its own members, a large number of whom support the government. But a strong argument can nonetheless be made that it is the church’s right to adopt such a position. If it wants to oppose the government, then so be it. It is merely confirming in the minds of many Fijians that the Methodist Church is the SDL at prayer, the religious arm of the racist political party deposed by Frank Bainimarama in 2006. At a political level, it has chosen its manger and can lie in it.
But it is quite another thing for the Methodist Church to seek to impose not only its political views but its own doctrine and the Christian religion on the rest of the country. In his interview with Radio Australia’s Bruce Hill, the Church President said that “about 52 per cent of Fijians” were Christians. “The largest number of the people in this country are Christians”, he said. Yes, but hardly an overwhelming majority and surely the barest of margins to advance the notion that 52 per cent of Fijians impose their religious will on everyone else.
In fact, it is an expression of astonishing arrogance for a major religious figure in Fiji to argue such a position. Imagine if the reverse was true, that 52 per cent of Fijians were Hindus. Would the Methodists have accepted Fiji being declared a Hindu state? Given the bigotry now being displayed by the Methodists, the notion is inconceivable. And yet had the Hindus wished to impose their will on Fiji they once had the numbers to do it. It’s only since the Indo-Fijian exodus from Fiji after the 1987 coup that the I’Taukei have become the majority race.
Mr Waqairatu’s arrogance is accompanied by the ignorance and prejudice of a religious zealot. Facts are ignored or twisted, the truth eclipsed by blind faith. Incredibly for a modern day mainstream clergyman, he justifies Fiji being declared a Christian state by citing the Old Testament of the Bible. “We look at our standpoint from the Biblical understanding of the writ covenant in the Old Testament because, Bruce, Fiji was given to God. When it was given to God it has already established its covenant relationship with God and that covenant relationship is eternal. It cannot be withdrawn. So people must understand that when we say this is a Christian state, it was historically and biblically established and we cannot withdraw that”, he said.
We understand alright, Turaga Levu na Peresitedi. We understand that this is gibberish, a theological justification for a temporal advantage for one religion that is so illogical that it beggars belief. Were the other religions in Fiji to make such a claim based on their own texts, Christians would shake their heads in utter astonishment. And make no mistake. There is a lot of head shaking all over the country right now as Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and other Christians digest the utterances of the President of the Methodist Church in Fiji. Of course, he regards his own logic as irrefutable. Because it is written in the Old Testament, it is and shall be evermore. This is an argument that no one else can win. The argument of a bigot.
What Mr Waqairatu glosses over is a bigger Christian truth – that Jesus Christ, who Christians worship as the son of God – came to rewrite the previous script, to give the Old Testament something of a Year Zero makeover. Christ replaced the Old Testament’s fire and brimstone – the narrative of punishment and God’s wrath – with a simple eternal message of God’s love, compassion and tolerance and the entreaty that we must all love one another as he has loved us. It’s a fundamental truth that these values are shared by most, if not all, of the world’s other major religions. Christianity and Islam, for instance, believe in the one God but place a different importance on his prophets, Jesus for Christians and Mohammed for Muslims. But it’s their shared values – those things common to humanity – that we must all emphasise if communities and whole countries are to live together in peace and mutual respect.
The last thing I would want to do is to get into a theological argument with the President of the Methodist Church. But as a humble luve ni talatala-a preacher’s son who was born in Fiji to Methodist missionary parents -I have heard the Christian message in my own life. And I believe that Jesus Christ said some profound truths that apply to the current position in Fiji. “In my father’s house, there are many mansions”, Christ said. I take that to mean that whatever your personal religious beliefs, striving for a life ruled by love, compassion, tolerance and understanding – the values of all the great religions – gives you a place in the afterlife. Christ also said : “Render to Caesar that which is Caesar’s and to God that which is God’s”. I take that as an entreaty to keep the spiritual dimension of one’s life separate from the organisation of society in the form of government. A biblical injuction for the separation of church and state, not for Christians to lord it over those who choose a different path to spiritual enlightenment.
In his Radio Australia interview, the Methodist Church president also came up with a strange temporal justification for the declaration of a Christian state. He claimed that the chiefs of Fiji had ceded the country to God. “When we say that Fiji is a Christian state, we say that it had been decided by our chiefs who ceded Fiji to Great Britain, that Fiji be a Christian country. On any historical measure, this is arrant nonsense. The chiefs – led by Seru Cakobau, the “Tui Viti” – ceded Fiji to Queen Victoria, the British monarch at the time. They didn’t cede Fiji to Great Britain but to Queen Victoria personally.
Nowhere in the Deed of Cession does it say that the chiefs have ceded Fiji to God. The statement doesn’t exist. The preamble to the document says the following:
Whereas the Fijian Chief Thakombau styled Tui Viti and Vuni Valu and the other high native chiefs of the said islands are desirious [sic] of securing the promotion of civilization and Christianity and of increasing trade and industry within the said islands…
That is the only mention of Christianity. So the chiefs say they want to secure the promotion of Christianity. In other words, for the Christian message to be propagated, not for Fiji to be given to God. That compact between the chiefs and Queen Victoria and her heirs and successors has been honoured. The Christian message – embraced by the chiefs within their own lifetimes after a dark age of extreme violence and cannibalism -has continued to be spread. But with the arrival of the Girmit, the indentured labourers brought by the British to work the cane fields, came other religions, notably Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs. And with the arrival of the Chinese came Buddhism and Confucianism. Fiji is therefore a multi-faith country. Why should one religion take preference over any other? At any level – aside from blind faith – it is indefensible.
It is also offensive to the 33 per cent of Fijians who are Hindus and the seven per cent who are Muslim. Their dismay at the following statement by the Methodist Church president can only be imagined:
“Whether we like it or not, this nation was given to God already when our chiefs, the owners of this land, gave Fiji to God and to Great Britain as well. That is something that we cannot change, and this must be really understood well by all people who live in the country. Fiji was already given to Jehovah God, our Yahweh, his son is Jesus Christ and his own spirit, full stop”.
This is tub-thumping, Christian fundamentalism that is unthinking, intolerant and has no place in a multi-faith country like Fiji.
But never mind the attitude of Hindus and Muslims, Mr Waqairatu’s views threaten a huge split in the Christian religion in Fiji. For they’ve been comprehensively repudiated by the second biggest Christian denomination – the Roman Catholic Church. Last week, the Roman Catholic Vicar General, Father Beni Kaloudau, said that declaring a Christian state was akin to “enslaving” people of other denominations.“The Catholic Church of Fiji favours a secular state. The right to worship is the greatest right for a human being. We all have the right to worship and we need to respect the different denominations that make up the population of our beautiful country,” Father Beni said. “We cannot be enslaving others with our beliefs. This is a faith journey which is up to each individual and the Catholic Church of Fiji respects this. We respect all denominations and feel that everyone has the right to worship.” The views expressed by the Roman Catholic Vicar General couldn’t be further from those of the head of the Methodist Church. So the country is now witnessing the once unthinkable spectre of the servants of Jesus Christ on a collision course with each other.
It is now time for the other Christian religions in Fiji to declare their position on this issue of grave national importance. Ordinary citizens have a right to know where the following denominations stand in descending order of their adherents – The Assemblies of God , The Seventh Day Adventists, the Anglicans, CMF (Every Home), Latter Day Saints, Apostolic, Gospel, Baptist, Salvation Army and Presbyterians. It is also time for individual Methodists to examine their own consciences and decide whether to support the views of their elected leader. Because Grubsheet understands that Mr Waqairatu’s comments have caused intense consternation among senior clergy and some former Methodist Church presidents. And it is time for the overseas churches which support the Methodists in Fiji to examine their own consciences – notably the Uniting Church in Australia and the British, New Zealand and American Methodists.
My own father, the Reverend Peter Davis, would have been appalled at the direction the Church has taken were he still alive. He was president in the late sixties and early seventies and saw interfaith goodwill and understanding as a key part of his own mission as leader. At the time of national independence in 1970, my father took part in an ecumenical service of thanksgiving at Albert Park. He was the head of the biggest church in Fiji. But he recognised –as did the entire church at that time – that he was merely representing one strand of faith in the country and insisted on equal status for all religions at that service.
The Methodist Church has had a long and proud record in Fiji. In many ways, it led the way to national independence by successfully becoming independent itself from the Australian church in 1964. It was led at that time by one of the finest churchmen Fiji has ever produced -the Reverend Setareki Tuilovoni, a man of deep personal faith, tolerance and mana.He was followed by leaders of the calibre of the Reverend Paula Niukula, another church leader who passionately believed in the church’s mission to spread the gospel but on its own merits.
But something happened in the lead-up to the 1987 coup, the growing identification of the Methodist Church with the indigenous nationalist cause. It led to massive tensions within the church between the moderates and indigenous supremacists such as the Reverend Manasa Lasaro and the Reverend Tomasi Kanailagi. It pains every moderate – and shames the Methodist Church – that the supremacists appear to have won. Certainly, it appears from his statements that the Reverend Tuikilakila Waqairatu is a religious supremacist and that is extremely bad news for Fiji as a whole. The word of Jesus – of love, tolerance and compassion – is there for the taking but voluntarily as an act of free will, not as an instrument of state policy as Mr Waqairatu would have it.
My parents were both Methodists so they “brought me up as a child in the way I should walk so that when I am old, I shall not depart from it”. I started reciting memory verses as early as five years old – in Fijian as well as in English. That lay the foundation for me to be “born again” as a young adult in the company of my Bretheren/Gospel family and friends. As an AOG Pastor’s spouse over the past 10 years, I have come to cherish and advocate the Core Christian Mission of ” Preaching the Gospel to ALL Nations, making disciples in Christ’s image and baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”. The key word is “preaching” meaning proclaiming and declaring and asserting its validity and pathway to “eternal life”. My key question is always “What would Jesus Christ do?”. In this case, I don’t think that my humble Jesus Christ would Impose himself on Fiji by announcing Fiji as his personal property by declaring it a Christian State. not the Jesus I know. Trust me Graham – I talk to him on a personal basis.
Being a Methodist myself I was shocked with the interview, one thing Thing did stand out was thats waqairatu is obviously uneducated! And for people like him to be speaking about Fiji being a christian state shows the sorry state of leadership in the Methodist chuch at the moment,
Waqairatu’s idea is no difference from the Taliban.
Quite unfortunate that Mr. Waqairatu has become a history revisionist, regarding his comment, that Fiji was ceded to God.
It also reflects the attitude of someone like Mr. Waqairatu, to play fast and loose with the facts; knowing full well hat he would get away with it. Being a Talatala Qase – God’s anointed representative in the Methodist church in Fiji, has its perks- the incumbent is perceived as all knowing and without a dishonest bone in his body.
Bruce Hill also conveniently played dumb and did not to follow up on that comment, by getting Mr. Waqairatu to clarify and qualify that statement with facts.
Bruce Hill needs a history lesson on Fiji.
He should not get one from Mr Waqairatu.
Logically,historically,legally,Mr Waqairatu is wrong
MC ahd the GCC are the two biggest problems in Fiji, bigger than SDL.
@ Peni Loma
Right on bro.
His position is indefensible on all those grounds.
But I am not surprised because the Methodists, ever since the coup of may 1987, have been a radicalising agent for strident Fijian ethno-nationalism. The GCC, joined them too and thus these two i’taukei respected institutions became forever tainted.
For a while I was of the view that Rabuka will go down in history as the person who damaged the reputation of the Methodist Church and the GCC by manipulating them to support his cause. But now I see that he was simply playing with their inner most fears and convictions, which remains embedded in the psyche of the uneducated i’taukei leaders like Waqairatu.
Waqairatu is playing politics. His words are those of FALSE PROPHETS. It is un Christ-like.
And yet all these ‘talatala qase’ wonder why young people are deserting the Church in droves.
Being much more educated these young people are voting with their feet because of the words and deeds of these false prophets.
By playing politics Waqairatu is just proving that the government was right all along in banning their annual meetings.
Wonder what has a higher place for the Kaivitis the church or the chiefs? Because they can’t serve two masters at once.
@ Vinay
You forgot the other institution they should be loyal to – the government of the day!
And that in a nutshell explains the taukei confusion – divided loyalties – each of the aforementioned players or institutions sending different messages that only only serve to confuse them ….offering radical and simplistic solutions to all their problems e.g coups, roadblocks, domestic violence, prison populations, sexual abuse etc etc.
Where is the taukei leadership? Where is the GCC and the Methodist Church in all of this?
Ya, too right, they playing their role as radicalising agents. Its called POLITiCS.
Its all about political exploitation of the masses and the mobilisation of bias.
Should we be suprised? Fiji was never ceded to God, can we just clarify the difference with the Old and New Testament before we all confuse ourselves. The Old Testament is about the history of the Jewish people nothing what-so-ever to do with the Fijians unless someone can tell me where it is written. The New Testament is about Christianity!
Fiji was given to Queen Victoria as the Queen of England as such all who lived in Fiji became British subjects. If Rev Waqairatu is now inferring that because Fiji was given to Queen Victoria it then follows that it was given to God sure i can follow that argument but wasn’t Queen Victoria head of the Church of England? Wasn’t this Church started by a KIng who didn’t believe in the Christ message of having just 1 wife? So which God is Rev Waqairatu on about? Maybe the very High and mighty Rev could be asked to give an explanation! The fither we carry on about God with human issues the more stupid we become in our addressing the issues-reminds of some who need to fight on behalf of God-goodness does God really need our help? The Rev needs a dose of epsom salt not to clean his guts out but his brain!
@ Varanitabua
Great insight in your post.
I thave always hought that Ratu Seru’s conversion was more to do about pressure from the US Consul and from King Saiosi Tupou from Tonga, rather and his (Tu Seru’s) belief in the Divinity and the merits of Christian Love.
That explains why he ordered his subjects to convert…..it was to save his own skin….in a very political sense….
Note…by that stage the Tui Cakau (Ratu Goleanavanua) had already ordered his subjects to convert to Roman Catholicism and had banished the Methodists under the Tongan Rev Jone Bulu et al to Waikava.
Its all about politics.
Dont ever believe Waqairatu when he says that it is all about religion….coz its all about politics
Waqairatu should make up his mind whether to be a politician or a preacher.
Waqairatu is a puupet of Qarase and the SDL
I am a methodist. I come from a very strong methodist background. I attended a methodist school. Now I am a active memeber of the methodist church in Fiji. I am disgusted by the comments of this piglet Waqairatu. And so are my fellow colleagues.
It is downright foolish, stupid for him to utter such menace. This man ia violent maniac.
I do not wish to associate with his flock.
Th Lord I serve has taught me love and tolerance. Not extremism.
Whoever gave life to this piglet must have been sorry fight from the very first day.
Fiji was ceded to God????????????????
Does this piglet Waqairatu thinks that most fijians are still easily brainwashed. Rabuka thought so in 1987 and got his way through. We have been through a lot since 1987. We have learnt a lot. We are now better educated since the dark days of 1987. We can now think for ourselves.
I think it is about time we Fijians got out of our shell and tell this piglet that he has no brains.
Indeed.
I recall Rabuka telling us in 1987 that God told him to coup Bavadra and that his coup was about saving the i’taukei from extinction.
He also told us that by shoving a gun down our throats to get us (Fiji) to change course that there was ‘No Other Way’
Ya, right!
Rabuka too you will recall was a Methodist lay preacher and was the Secretary/Treasurer of the Nabua Methodist Circuit at the time. So he had fallen for all these false prophets who urgeged him to coup and who went on to lead another coup themselves against the then President of the Methodist Church (Koroi)
In 200 when George Speight made his move, his ‘Taukei Government’ put out a ‘Deed of Sovereignty’ that demanded return of all Fijian lands and qoliqoli rights etc. That Deed was written by a Methodist minister who is now deceased. That explains why the then Church President (Kanailagi) at the time wrote a letter to Speight giving full support to “the cause”.
The Methodists have a lot to answer for in Fiji’s political problems to date. They are at it again with Waqairatu leading the charge this time. There is much truth in the saying that ‘a leopard does not change its spots’.
All very sordid business. So un Christ-like
If God told Rabuka to execute the coup than why hell is he apologising?
@ Graham
The very first picture on top. Who is it , mate? Mugabe??? Looks like Mugabe to me.
I am surprised that the Methodist Church leadership hasn’t learnt a thing. whilst other Christian denominations are growing in numbers – CMF, All Nations, Jehovahs Witness – the Methodists are dwindling in numbers.
The problem the methodists have is that they think they have a right to be the birth religion of all Fijians. They conspire with chiefs in villages to ban other Christian denominations from villages even if the vi8llagers themselves chose to change their denomination.
They are now thinking of investing in Commercial property to cover the shortfall of millions in their cashflow. Now talk about priorities Weren’t they supposed to be teaching the flock and leading them. Or are they wolves in sheep covering – their to kill them. I believe the latter.
I believe that they owe quite a substantial amount of money in rates and maybe taxes.
It is interesting to note that in 1996 the Church owed SCC $300,000 in rates and am not sure whether this has been paid. I would like to know if it still owes any money now. With the cancellation of the Koniferedi over the past few years this has hurt the church real bad.
It’s possible that previous SDL /SVT government has manipulated the siutation so that the church has not paid its dues.
So in the end it’s all about the money.
I don’t think you even realise how hurtful your whole article is. You purport to be a son of a Methodist Preacher and have compassion for others but you should actually call a spade a spade and say that you hate the iTaukei and you hate Methodists.
I am a Methodist and if I were to disagree with what the President of the Methodist Church would say – I would at least have the courtesy to put the remark in context, do some research rather than rely on a few historical figures, and a radio interview. Again I think I expect too much and your articles are essentially another example of my hope “to a lost cause”.
As the President of the Methodist – it is your duty to represent the interests of your church and your beliefs. That is his duty and his right to express that interest. Just as a women’s organization or NGO would represent the interest of all women that is their right and duty to do that – people may call it unfair and a broken record but we accept their right to make their views known. I hope you are not being presumptions to think that all Methodists think the same way. I may disagree with what you say but I will protect your right to say and not incite hatred against you. Deconstruct the argument properly that would require some actual research further than your own thinking. I am reminded of that documentary “the smartest guys in the room” – that is the syndrome that your articles continuously suffer from.
Your whole article doesn’t create constructive discussion you incite hatred, extremism, and hurt. You talk about compassion but yet you fail to show it and instead take the same “holier than thou” standpoint – you have become the same person that you dislike. You have actually brought nothing to the table – if anything you have wiped everything off the table with a dirty cloth and expect a thank you. I don’t have any awards to my name but as a journalist you take comments out of context and use it to your own advantage – I believe you would be referred to as a Politician.
It is also very presumptious of you to believe that “you represent the views of many people in the country” – are you referring to Australia or Fiji. Being the son of the former president of the Methodist Church doesn’t give you any more right than I to walk in guns blazing, it doesn’t make your article any more credible so I haven’t the foggiest idea as to why they keep quoting that in the Fiji Sun.
All I ever see from your articles is a self righteous and egotistical ramblings of a man who verbally abuses and criticizes at whim because he is allowed a two page spread in the Fiji Sun – and if that is a measure of your success then what else can one say but good on ya mate.
You even purport to talk about a multiracial country but then you have continued to berate the Methodist Church and the iTaukei and all without even taking the time to actually look past your own prejudice and preconceived notion of our lives. You talk about people and institutions without realising that they are multiracial themselves – you should attest to this. You have not even distinguished between Methodists and iTaukei – so when you say that the President asked for a Christian automatically you played the racial card which further incites hatred.
You don’t ever find the good or context just something to get you a two page spread – a perfect lesson in keeping good with the government all for further individual gain. I put forward this notion to you Mr Davis from Matthew 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” This are words to live by!
@ Aggie N.
Tell that to that piglet Waqairatu, you smart Alec. You sound like the bread woman. Another piggy’s thread?????????????
hahah wow namecalling – ignorance knows no bounds I guess. its okay if it went over your head! I guess neither dissent nor contructive criticism are not qualities you can take but you seem happy to package, present and dish/throw it any way you can!
Aggie N, you are entitled to your opinion but you are as deluded as the Methodist Church president in acting hurt because someone has challenged the church over its intolerant behaviour.
Fiji is a multi-faith country and it’s about time that the Methodist Church wakes up to the fact. It does not have the monopoly on righteousness that it constantly claims on the absurd grounds that it is the one true religion.
The notion that I am trying to hurt the i’Taukei and the Methodist Church is ridiculous. I am entitled to my opinion and know for a fact that these concerns are shared by many. Have a look at the comments above yours. I am not an island, as you seem to be suggesting.
This has nothing to do with my ego, as you allege. I am making a stand for tolerance and understanding as opposed to the racial and religious bigotry being shown towards other Fijians by certain people in the church.
My father gave his working life to the Methodist Church. But the church that I was raised in is not the travesty that passes for the church today. The fact that the Roman Catholics understand the need for a secular state pretty much says it all. The Methodists are the SDL in Sunday garb and the church has been so politicised that it is almost beyond redemption.
Instead of pointing the finger of blame at me for “hurting” you, perhaps you might reflect on why the son of a Methodist missionary would expose himself to the kind of hammering you have given me here. It is because the church has lost its way. I didn’t want to do it and have held off on commenting for years. But this was the final straw and I can no longer remain silent because of the “hurt” feelings of others.
Maybe you should start thinking about the hurt feelings of Fiji’s religious minorities when their own beliefs are so trampled on by a church that is brimming with pharisees. It is a temple of hubris and arrogance, not a place where the Christian message of love, compassion and tolerance is preached.
If there is anyone that advocates for Religious Tolerance and Multiracialism I would happily stand out there with you in the face of criticism but you call it the Methodist Church of Tolerance and paint all Methodists with the same brush.
My best friend that I would lay my life down for is an Indonesian Muslim, my God Mother is Catholic and I respect all religions but yet again you paint us with the same brush. By no means do I wish to justify my religious tolerance but not only does my Minister advocate for religious tolerance he encourages us to act out our faith.
As Methodists we not only have to question our President but fight against the prejudice and preconceived notions of Methodists that you promote. Your article just put Waqairatu and Kanailagi in the same box by virtue of their position and all the comments above have found someone new/old to blame for all the political problems that we face i.e us.
What was funny about your article is that you used the perfect opportunity to bring up your reserved comments over the years and lumped it on one person’s opinion on a non-secular state. No one has even looked or deconstructed the arguments for and against a secular and non-secular state but we just happily eat what we are fed nevermind about looking deeper. But I guess you gotta sell newspapers so what the heck.
You talk about the travesty the Methodist is today but are not with the youth everyday doing community service trying to empower young people to seek valuable means of employment or teaching and acting the Christian message of love, compassion and tolerance that is preached to us, advocating for their rights, feeding the poor regardless of race and religion. Doing work in the Community or in our church where the government has lacked.
I would lay down my life for the safety and security or the right of another regardless of religion or race because that it the value that I was taught from the Church and yet you call us out as intolerant extremists.
Aside from my hurt feelings all I see is you painting us yet again with intolerance, extremism and prejudice without even taking the time to see the work that we actually do on the ground. You call it a temple of hubris and arrogance but come to my Church and actually see the message and the work that we do and the fact that you have not considered to do so pisses me off more. When you see the work that we do – no doubt your father would be proud or find that it is a place “where the Christian message of love, compassion and tolerance is preached” and acted upon. Be the solution and have the decency not to call us the SDL in Sunday Garb and “beyond redemption” – honestly are you for real?
I am not a member of the SDL and I do not support them – I think that each religion should have a right to speak for themselves and issues that affect their members – employment, abuse, poverty, government infrastructure – that is the right of every citizen and tax paying institution.
Keep in mind that you speak against members of the same congregation that worked to soli and gave their vakamisinari for your family and their work in the church – in calling all Methodists out you bite the hand that fed you i.e the hands of our forefathers. A practice that we continue to undertake for our members.
I don’t expect your loyalty as the son of the Methodist Missionary but rather your courtesy to take all points of view into account but I guess its kind of hard being far away and all.
Your article was also intolerant against Methodists across Fiji and I think you just shot yourself in the foot of your argument. If Hindu’s asked for Fiji to be a Hindu state that is their right to express their view I may not agree with it but I am not gonna call my article the Hindu Religion of Intolerance.
Your article just incites the same extremism and prejudice that you purport to stand against – maybe it isn’t hurt I was feeling but anger and realisation that it is the people on the ground that have to rebuild the damage done from being called out again as an extremist, racist or piggy/smart alec as Jukebox so aptly puts it.
Methodists DO NOT hold the monopoly or righteousness nor am I deluded but you see Mr Davis maybe I am just fed up at the fingerpointing and the name calling at the problem but no one actually offers us a solution.
Therein is the real challenge, should we be part of the problem or the solution. Will you actually pick up the phone and call the President and remind him of your view or offer him a solution to the problem that you see or is it easier from where you sit just call it “beyond redemption” “brimming with Pharisees”. Where does that leave the young people in the church that work tirelessly in showing “love and compassion” or is that not your problem? as long as you have highlighted in your two page spread that we are intolerant your work is done. As long as you’ve taken a stand and expressed your views that you have long since held against Methodists that’s okay.
I am far from deluded or self righteous just fed up and I for one have decided to become a solution to the problems that I see, to rebuild this nation with tolerance and love for everyone regardless of race or religion, after all Mr Davis faith without action is dead.
Sounds like someone who was supplying bread to that failed businessman halfcaste Speight
hahaha personally insulted and complimented that I am compared to someone that supplies bread but more so saddened that that was all you got from it!
Aggie N form your writings I believe you are a Methodist – i am sorry for your hurt with the article by Graham on the stance by the Rev Waqairatu! But what confused me is your claim that Graham hates the iTaukei & Methodists. So i am not here to defend Graham but when you make comments i appreciate it if you come to this party with some facts! Here are some but it is not the exhaust list-Grubsheet would not be able to cater for the doings and goings on within the Methodist Church with its staunch support for coups if I was to list them all!
1.When Rabuka planned the first coup there were some very Senior Methodist Minister in that planning process-in full support
2. Did you not notice how members of the Methodist Church marched thru Suva and also the West to support Rabuka before and after
3. It was Methodist Rabuka who spoke to God about having a coup
4. It was the likes of Rev Lasaro who basically got people to lift Rev Koroi with the chair he sitting on to get rid of him from his office because he stood against the likes of Senior Methodist Ministers supporting Rabuka
5.Etc, ETc Etc
Here’s my point we have to learn and move past what hapened in 1987 which means realising that Fiji is and never was made for just one race to occupy! What makes us return to 1987 is because some just can’t get it out of their heads that we can’t return to those dark days unless you are one of those that think that that was a period of enlightment! Maybe it was for some!
The Fijians all need to rethink were they want to be and want to go in next 100 years do we want to keep playing “cowboys and Indians” at the expense of our childrens future? Somehow or rather when the Methodist Church gets mentioned people jump up and down but has anyone noticed how much damage this Church has done not only to the message of Christ but also to the beliefs of its people-on one hand you say yes ‘love thy neighbour’ yet that love seems to mean one thing in Church on Sunday but something else on Monday when you working with other races. Grahams article is about looking at hypocracy in people-this is what needs to be differentiated between quoting from Christ teaching and confusing what we want as humans. Let me put it to this way-do you seriously think if Fiji became Christian State it will solve all of the criminal activities going on, or Fiji will be a perfect paradise? The last time i looked the largest numbers of Fijian in Jail were Christians-and the biggest group were Methodists! Whats happened to Christ message with this lot!
Can we stop qoting the Bible to justify our own human stupidity and gloss it over with words of wisdom from the Bible to make it appear that its Gods words-some of us no longer that dopy. Christ message of “love thy neighbour” comes without and clauses , no Ifs, no Buts and no Nos!
If we really serious of converting others to Christianity lets begin by practicing our FAITH not by words by by DEEDS-thats the first step, then they will see that we are what we porporting to be not PRETEND to be and maybe then they will join us.. If Christ came to save this world we sure as hell trying to limit those who should go to heaven with our deeds, why? Others just don’t believe us its almost like we Christian think that heaven is only made for us! If thats was true than the whole of creation doesn’t make any sense but that would be to hard for you to comprehend as you still hurt by Grahams article. God is not a Christian nor is the Almighty a Methodist or Buddist or Catholic. Its we humans that created the Religions when you point your finger and say i am right and all others is wrong you just point the finger a yourself! Here ends the lesson. Dri yani.
Thanks you actually made my point for me! Thanks for the repetition of that lesson and fyi that initial statement was to point out the ridiculousness of generalized and outlandish statements without basing them on facts….like the Methodist Church is intolerant! Sounds pretty ridiculous aye? exactly….thank goodness you see the ridiculousness of the statement that I made but yet run to the defence of Graham when I call him out. Another example of throwing a fit when you have to drink the same medicine that you give out.
IF YOU READ MY RESPONSES CAREFULLY YOU WILL NOTE THAT I DO NOT AGREE WITH FIJI BECOMING A CHRISTIAN STATE HOWEVER THAT POINT IS REDUNDANT.
Yes I am aware of the Methodist Church’s role in the coups of the past and still stand agasp at the fact that the same Church is to blame for 2006 Coup and the state that we are in now…..but instead we are gonna give IMMUNITY to everyone involved in 2006 and point the finger at the other coup perpetrators of the past and the Methodist Church. Awesome logic right there
WHILE THE noble Mr Davis is highlighting hypocrisy – maybe he can speak to the above hypocrisy!
Moving past 1987 is the best thing I read about your reply….acting out our faith – thank God you said that because I totally agree! Let’s get one thing straight I am hurt by the article but not naive enough to see the gaping holes in his argument….it hurts more that prejudice and division is perpetrated more in this article.
We essentially agree in a number of principles that we should act out our faith, not force our beliefs onto anyone but my point was that Davis calls out the same prejudice using the same prejudice and intolerance.
“If thats was true than the whole of creation doesn’t make any sense but that would be to hard for you to comprehend as you still hurt by Grahams article. – I CAN COMPREHEND CIRCLES AROUND YOU MATE….just take a chill pill I’m not writhing in pain from his article or dying if anything it was an allergic reaction to Bullshit!
“God is not a Christian nor is the Almighty a Methodist or Buddist or Catholic” – YOU ARE SO TRUE.
Its we humans that created the Religions when you point your finger and say i am right and all others is wrong you just point the finger a yourself! ” – ARE YOU REFERRING TO ME POINTING THE FINGER OR TO MR DAVIS POINTING THE FINGER! EITHER WAY I TOTALLY AGREE with that view only you need to distinguish between pointing the finger of blame or accountability!…I didnt realising that holding someone accountable to their biased views was disallowed!
I am not going to apologise to the nice Fiji Born Kaivalagi man for offending his article….no one is pointing the finger at anyone so have a break and have another KIT KAT.AND PUHLEASE GIVE ME A BREAK…I THINK THE POINT OF A CONSTRUCTIVE DEBATE Is TO BE ASSURED IN YOUR OWN ARGUMENT…I NEVER SAID I WAS RIGHT I was shedding light on another point of view from personal experience!
I LOVE EVERYONE OF ALL DIFFERENT RACES AND RELIGIONS, CREED, GENDER AND WHATEVER but loving someone and agreeing with them are two different things….this country is for everyone, to be happy, safe and prosperous in and it doesn’t belong exclusively to one group. I LOVE THAT WE HAVE SO MANY FREEDOMS IN THIS COUNTRY ESP THE FREEDOM TO EXPRESS YOUR BELIEFS, SPEECH AND SO FORTH.
#TOLERANTMETHODIST
I love your reply and have not asked you to apologise but as you say” the ‘nice Fiji born Kaivalagi” Really so what about the “nice born kai Idia, or nice born Kai Loma or nice born Kai Jaina! Just was beginning to believe your reply & some apathy for you until you let the cat out of the bag! The race issue -“isa sa ka dredre na noda via vuni taka na noda dau vei vaka duidui vaka kawa tamata” “No matter how hard we try we seem to also slip up on this race thing”! The Church i go to doesn’t see me as a Fiji born kaivalgi that was the core of Christ message to his followers but some can’t hide those inner feelings till they are challenged! The problem is Waqairatu not the Methodist but it becomes a Methodist problem when you follow along blindly. It doesn’t matter which race of group or religious body in Fiji is in greater numbers or less the very concept of pushing you beliefs on others is abhorrent-please get past the religion and see people for what they are not their beliefs , colour, etc!
Hahaha I love your comment hats off to you mate thanks for the laughs! The premise of this whole article is on religion! everyone brings up race and that the itaukei are synonymous with Methodism! And when I address those very issues or call out that same prejudice – its somehow taboo we have to tiptoe around that issue! Never mind they paint us all with the same brush! If my replies have not alluded to this let me make it clear to you in case it escaped your attention – I don’t follow blindly Waqairatu or Davis or you…I just have the good mind to question prejudices! Keep your apathy I think you’ll need it more!
During my fathers final rites after a 13 day ceremony, the priest said to my mother something to the effect, ” is this the only amount you can give to some one who is going to retire from the civil service”. ( he was a full time civil servant and a part time priest).
I turned my head sideways and saw my speechless mother, tears rolling down her cheeks…..more precious tears than all the diamond in this world.
I was 12 years old,had five other siblings and a mum who just lost her husband and no future income.
And this is what I told the priest to the astonishment of my family (of course I got a beating from my elder brother), “….never set foot in this yard again…never ever”. I remember Bubu,who was a christian (at that age I did not know of the denominations), was very upset with me. Semi and Pita (bubu would literally drag them to the church on Sundays), became my best buddies.
My question to you is “what will you do at your adult age?”.
(And please we all can write how good we feel about others and blah…blah..etc and tolerant……)
At 12 years of age, I took a stance against injustices.
It appears to me that many people, regardless of their specific religious beliefs, have chosen to overlook many things in their quest to prove that their specific religion, or denomination within a religion, is the “correct” one.
For instance, what is the probability that leaders of long ago ordered the people who copied the Bible, or other sacred religious books, to include their own beliefs (the leaders)? I know that this point may not be to the liking of some people. And that is okay…EVERYONE is entitled to their own beliefs. Most people are creatures of habit and tradition. They believe because they were taught to believe, and in turn teach their children to believe.
I was raised in a Southern Baptist church, and continue to attend services at the same church. I have faith in what I believe because I’ve been shown time and again truths. This is a very personal thing, though. I do not expect my class mates, friends, and family to believe exactly the same thing, right down to the last minute detail. How could I expect this? Every person on this earth has experienced differences in family dynamics, cultural differences, life experiences, spiritual experiences. These things affect what a person believes, in spiritual, religious, and other ways.
It is not my job to tell anyone else that they are wrong or to pass judgment on others in any way. It is my job to love my brothers and sisters…because no matter what religion you may practice, you have to believe that we all were created. We all were valued and were born to fulfill our purpose. Now, I may share with others my beliefs and invite them to seriously consider the goodness and grace that I have found. But, I do not condemn them if they choose otherwise.
Sometimes, I think we have to look at the bigger picture with regard to all of this. For instance, I am a Christian. If I have judgmental thoughts about someone else because they are different from me, then what must God think of me? If I shun someone because their actions, decisions, and choices are different from mine, how is that love? I can disagree with someone or debate with someone about individual beliefs, but that doesn’t mean I have to belittle, insult, or berate them.
There’s bound to be someone who reads this essay who thinks that I am not committed to my God. And you have the right to think whatever you’d like…but you don’t know my heart, and you’re not the one I answer to, anyway. I SAID THAT TO MAKE A POINT…WE ALL INDIVIDUALLY HAVE THE RIGHT TO BELIEVE HOWEVER WE CHOOSE.
I think if we all were more mindful of our own actions and body language, we could show the truths of our individual beliefs better. If we reached out a helping hand to others despite differences…if we truly cared about something more than our own selfish desires…maybe then we could accept each other.
@ Angel,,,
Good one Angel.
@Angle what you written hits the nail on the head .”For instance, what is the probability that leaders of long ago ordered the people who copied the Bible, or other sacred religious books, to include their own beliefs (the leaders)?”
EXACTLY what happened and in some instances did more than just that”
Fiji wasn’t ceded to Queen Victoria because the chiefs had embraised Christianity. The chiefs couldn’t pay for the damage they had done to the US Embassy.
Only if the wouldn’t have burned the embassy the Cakobau family i think still would have been ruling Fiji.
Hi Kumar, just looking at the article now, and after some deliberation, I believe that much of what he said was spiritual rather then literary.
I think, he spoke of the spiritual meaning regarding surrendering leadership and the vanua tied with the traditional handing over ceremony that would have been performed by the Chiefs to the Queen or her representative.
In history books, all we see are pictures of old Fijian men, signing a decree. But that would have been after countless hours of i-taukei cultural ceremonies.
I think that the culture of i-taukei is one where, the gods are linked with the vanua, which is linked with the people. To surrender one, is to surrender all.
In hindsight, I think that this was one of the greatest revelations to this generation, and all we did was shoot down the prophet.
I concede, when the news came out surrounding this back then, I was a little disappointed at him, only because I heard what he said at face value. But now, looking at it in its entirety, I realise what a great man of God he truly was.
Rest in peace Talatala.
@ Aggie N.
I have somethimg for you to ponder about. Share this with with Waqairatu. Might do you good.
“A mouse looked through the crack in the wall to see the farmer and his wife open a package. What food might this contain?’ The mouse wondered . He was devastated to discover it was a mousetrap.
Retreating to the farmyard, the mouse proclaimed the warning:
There is a mousetrap in the house! There is a mousetrap in the house!’
The chicken clucked and scratched, raised her head and said, ‘Mr. Mouse, I can tell this is a grave concern to you, but it is of no consequence to me. I cannot be bothered by it.’
The mouse turned to the pig and told him, ‘There is a mousetrap in the house! There is a mousetrap in the house!’ The pig sympathized, but said, I am so very sorry, Mr. Mouse, but there is nothing I can do about it but pray. Be assured you are in my prayers.’
The mouse turned to the cow and said ‘There is a mousetrap in the house! There is a mousetrap in the house!’ The cow said, ‘Wow, Mr. Mouse. I’m sorry for you, but it’s no skin off my nose.’
So, the mouse returned to the house, head down and dejected, to face the farmer’s mousetrap . . . alone.
That very night a sound was heard throughout the house — like the sound of a mousetrap catching its prey.
The farmer’s wife rushed to see what was caught. In the darkness, she did not see it was a venomous snake whose tail was caught by the trap. The snake bit the farmer’s wife.
The farmer rushed her to the hospital, and she returned home with a fever.
Everyone knows you treat a fever with fresh chicken soup, so the farmer took his hatchet to the farmyard for the soup’s main ingredient.
But his wife’s sickness continued, so friends and neighbors came to sit with her around the clock.
To feed them, the farmer butchered the pig.
The farmer’s wife did not get well; she died.
So many people came for her funeral, the farmer had the cow slaughtered to provide enough meat for all of them.
The mouse looked upon it all from his crack in the wall with great sadness.
So, the next time you hear someone is facing a problem and think it doesn’t concern you, remember —-when one of us is threatened, we are all at risk.
We are all involved in this journey called life. We must keep an eye out for one another and make an extra effort to encourage one another”
So, the next time you hear someone is facing a problem and think it doesn’t concern you, remember —-when one of us is threatened, we are all at risk.
We are all involved in this journey called life. We must keep an eye out for one another and make an extra effort to encourage one another”
I totally agree with you Jukebox – if anything that was my point exactly! As a Methodist I don’t agree with Mr Waqairatu but I would rather deconstruct the argument based on merits and not the fact that all Methodists are extremists and prejudiced and further blaming the past on Methodists. How can someone purport to fight against prejudice by using prejudice as a weapon? Is that not fighting a losing battle?
As citizens of this country, we should look out for each other and encourage one another and not beat a whole congregation and people down by doing so. It seems convenient to remember certain parts our history when the argument suits but conveniently forget certain aspects of our history that has brought us to this point.
Aggie your qoute ” that all Methodists are extremists and prejudiced and further blaming the past on Methodists”! Well either you were living in Vatu i Ra or you were in coma who do you think was going around planning the past goings on in Fiji which brought us to the point were we are today. No one is saying you all agreed but did you voice your disagreement in Church or to the Church Leaders? I did ask and was abused for my questions because people believed that you were either with them or against them. Lets not play this we all didn’t know or support the methodist Church Leaders game -so shall we blame the Catholics , or maybe the Hindhus or Muslims for stirring up all the chaos that occurred! The Methodist Church Leaders were in the thick of things-so can you just lay off this disclaimer bit and give those who really suffered at the hands of the Methodist some rest. Waqairatu was one of them so was Lasaro who led the masses !
nope I wasn’t in a coma….I wish I was in a coma….was wide awake and a witness the failures of the church and I have learnt from it just as I was wide awake and a witness to all failures of the leaders of this nation elected or otherwise right up to the present day…and I have resolved to expect more them regardless of race and religion…I don’t think blame lies with any one group because it doesn’t solve anything….especially when people aren’t even hold anyone else accountable and give immunity like the fruits of the season! its a pain in the proverbial really.
@ Aggie….
Thanks for the acknowledgement. Be clarified on this though. Graham and myself at no stage tried to beat down the entire methodist congregation for the sinful ways of it’s top leader. this man, Waqairatu needs to be removed immediately to bring back some respect to the church. His actions and his interview with Radio Australia is continuing to give a bad name to to methodist church.
And, this ,Aggie, is what we must now stop from happening. For far too long the church’s name has been tarnished by greedy politically allignedmen of cloth.
I am today ashamed of such comments from the man I had a hand in electing to be the head of my church.
Maybe it would clear the confusion if the headline did not read as “Methodist Church of Intolerance” sensationalizing feelings against the Methodist Church. He makes a criticism of one man and refers to the Methodist Church – I think that no man is “beyond redemption” no one. I am a member of the Methodist Church, you criticized people within the Congregation. You referred to it as “my church” if you take ownership you must agree the criticism was leveled at everyone in the Methodist Church.
I think too easily we remove people/leaders when we don’t like what they have to say and start anew despite the fact that you had a hand in electing them…case in point – the 4 coups that we have had…the challenge is not to change the leader but change the mindset. The church leaders who you blanket as being politicised are still members of our congregation and it is our task to work with what we have, to make lemonade out of lemon, to look for silver lining. As the saying goes “we just gotta suck it up” and work with what you got. That’s the point of elections – it may or may not have been your choice but tough that’s just how the cookie crumbles. The onus is not on them but on us to expect more, elect better and question – throwing someone out doesn’t solve anything. After all, as everyone man/woman breathes – there is always hope for change and enlightenment.
Unconditional love isn’t meant to be easy – if it was we wouldn’t be in strife. We can’t throw a fit when we don’t get what we want – we are not kids anymore.
From my observation it seems that If a priest of any other religion were to advise any one of the Political leaders today – they would not be considered “politically aligned men of the cloth”? It seems that that term is only reserved for Methodists leaders and Methodists Ministers?
@ Aggie
You sound likje a precious soul. Thank you for pointing out the waywardness of those who agree with Graham.
I too am a Methodist and for the last 20 years have paid my dues diligently in the form of contributions to the ‘vakamissinari’ as well as to lease payments on a Methodist property that I run as a farm and employ youths of different denominations to farm and sell the proceeds for their own benefit.
I also attend Butt Street Church in Suva whenever I can get there.
Back to Waqairatu. I was prepared to give thie man the benefit of the doubt. I had heard that he was a closet ethno-nationalist in the mould of Manasa Lasaro and Tom Kanailagi et al.
But his recent pronouncements about Fijian chiefs ceding Fiji to a God is historically and legally incorrect (thanks to Peni Loma for pointing this out).
Look at the behaviour of prominent Methodists post 1987 eg Sitiveni Rabuka, Bill Gonelevu, Manasa Lasaro, Tomasi Kanailagi etc, and the path that they have led the Church to follow – coups, Sunday bans, forced prayer sessions etc. Sounds like another version of the Taliban!
I will be making my views known to the Church hierarchy about my disatisfaction at the way our annointed leaders are taking us.
Truth be told! Free at last, Free at last-wiser i don’t think so!
Manasa Lasaro is the most dangerous man in Fiji.
The army should keep a close watch on him
@ Fiji’s most dangerous man,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
How do you know Manasa Lasaro is the most dangerous man in Fiji?
Most dangerous man in Fiji is the one that wields the GUN.
Mac,
You seem to be a simpleton who judges a book by its cover given your Lasaro/Miss India comments. Do you understand hidden dangers or are they too hard to comprehend with a mind like yours?
Who wields the gun ????????????
I know, but can’t give specifics.
An extremist who works behind the scenes.
He is the ideas man.
Very good at influencing.
Keeps just under the radar.
If Fiji Indians want to be known as Fijians then why is it that they take part in Miss India Fiji.
After the illegal PM gets his way will any future contests be open to itaukei and other Fijians of different ethnic backgrounds or remain exclusively Indians only.
@ Mac
There is nothing to stop the equivalent “Miss Fiji in India” contest being organized …or in Sri Lanka..Uzbekistan…Krygstan…Mauritania..etc…etc…
You go find the sponsors who will underwrite the show and it will go on. Thats the nature of capitalist endeavour. If there is a buck to be made, there will be people who will take the risk and invest in such a scheme.
Stop being a narrow minded, racist dickhead. Its all about money you boofhead.
Good argument but whats the fuss after all we keep reminding people living in Fiji that they VULAGIS! Can’t have it both ways -no wonder Fiji is so confused…We selected someone to represent us in the miss universe competition then they had to deselect her because of her age! Come competition night we had the ypoung lass dress up as owl to represent a bird that heralds bad tidings for the Fijians. Now you want us to take up your thoughts-Good one Mac you need a PC!
Mac
The topic of discussion here is the comment by waqairatu on Radio Australia etc. What this has got to do with the miss India Fiji. If you have nothing to say just shut the hell up.
Sorry nothing political but Christians should “speak the truth in love”.They are also to “honour all men” and those in authority.
Dear Graham, please be careful about quoting Scripture out of context. It is true that our Lord declared there were many mansions in His Father’s House. However this is not to be interpreted as the House being full of the human race with all their religious beliefs and practices! He made it very clear He was the Way, the Truth and the Life and that no man can come to the Father but by Him! This is the reason for Christian evangelism as also taught by John Wesley and the Methodists who brought the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ to Fiji. Surely I cannot imagine your dear father not preaching that.Yes God loves all mankind and so do true Christians and hence to continue in the spread of the Gospel so that “whosoever” will may believe and have a place in the Father’s House. God bless Fiji.
Daya Nand, we can all find passages in the bible that suggest one thing or another but all this is beside the point. Christianity is one of the world’s great religions, not THE religion, except in the minds of Christians. That is all well and good. But the fundamental principle I was arguing is that in multi-faith societies, no religion ought to be embraced by the state – as in politicians – as representing the embodiment of that state.
Who is to say that Christianity is superior to other religions? It is all a matter of faith. And even if you want to stick to literal interpretations of the bible – as you evidently do – Christ’s teaching about “rendering to Caesar” is surely the most relevant text.
There is a spiritual element and a temporal element to life and the two are separate. Fuse them and the only possible result in multi-faith societies is conflict and potential disaster. What you have said here is a form of “I’ve got a better religion than you and you will be accept mine because I say so”.
Were the boot to be on the other foot, you would doubtless claim religious persecution. There is no good that can come of this and the Methodist Church in Fiji needs to understand that.
Daya Nand there is no one true Religion when you begin from that premise than the understanding of other Religions and beliefs can come about without drawing any conclusions.Christ didn’t start Christianity he was a practicing Jew!
Thanks Graham for raising such an issue regarding the Methodist Church. The truth has to be told. The Methodist church no longer belongs to God. It has become a synagogue of SATAN. It is a church run by the spirit of Anti-Christ full of the old wine and unsaved leaders who are full of EGO, PRIDE and selfish worldly AMBITION. The characteristic of SATAN that old devil and his Kingdom. They talk about Christianity but have they enter and seen the KINGDOM of GOD? If they have they would have known the real true meaning of CHRIST. CHRIST begins within the individual and not by enforcing it on others. FREEWILL choice is the name of the GAME. Freely received, Freely given.
Thank you to The Light for steering the discussion back to the Core Christian Mission of ” Preaching the Gospel to ALL Nations, making disciples in Christ’s image and baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”. The key word is “preaching” meaning proclaiming and declaring and asserting its validity and pathway to “eternal life”. My personal guiding question in any choice of constructive action and solution is always “What would Jesus Christ do in these circumstances?”. In this case, I don’t think that my humble Jesus Christ would Impose himself on Fiji by announcing Fiji as his personal property in declaring it a Christian State. In that way I disagreed with Waqairatu but I refrained from condemning him and the Methodist Church. I just answered my Christian guiding question. I posted that first comment two days ago, walked away and deliberately stayed off this thread – I am both shocked and deeply saddened by all the vernom that has spilled out from everyone in response to the article. Is this what dialogue in Fiji has become? Condemning and villifying and name-calling self justifying without restraint? What would Jesus Christ do now? Walk away from it all. I rest my case. May God Bless Fiji !
Talei, I’m sorry but I don’t believe in the right of Christians to force their beliefs on others, just as I don’t believe in Islamists or anyone else doing the same thing. You can proclaim all you like. That is religious freedom. But it is the right of others not to listen. You cannot force Christ’s message onto those who don’t want to hear it and have their own strongly held beliefs. That is not behaving in the spirit of the Christian message. You need to accept Christ because you want to, not because someone else insists. And anything else is a form of religious totalitarianism. What would Jesus do? Preach his message and allow others to make up their minds, not strong-arm them into acceptance.
Thank you Garaham for saying what I am saying in different wording. I too don’t agree in strong arming other religions “by declaring Fiji a Christian State”. That is the issue here! Good bye until the next blog. I need to breathe fresh air !
Hear, hear!
I made my disgust clear on the phone to Waqairatu last night. This is what I told him:
“Religious tolerance is not religious indifference. It consists of valuing the right of another person to hold beliefs that you know absolutely, and without a doubt, to be wrong.”
He was speechless!!!!!!!!!!!
Jukebox, this is a brilliant way to put it. Your thought processes put mine to shame. And I’m not surprised that the Reverend Gentleman was speechless.
Graham, thanks for the compliment mate. I must thank you for bringing up such a challenging topic for discussion in this forum.
Being a devout methodist myself, it deeply hurts me to contend with such gibberish waste spewing out of the mouth of someone whose election to the top office I had a hand in.
I have many friends and even close relatives who are neither methodist, nor are they christians. We live together in this great nation called Fiji. We have a shared dream for this land of ours. We strive together for the benefit of our future generation.
I have been asked my many what my stance is regarding the ill-mannered reverend’s outburst. I smile back and tell them not to worry about it and just get on with their lives.
There are many in the methodist congregation who are equally disgusted about this at thiis moment. They do not concur with such a stance.
Just like what I told the reverend over the phone last night, many of us methodists stand by every word of it. We preach love and the word of God as stated in the Bible. No deviation! Full Stop.
God is not always correct. Just ask Rabuka. God told him to overthrow the Bavadra Government.
He accepted God’s word and did exactly what God told him to do.
I am just astounded as to why is he asking for forgiveness.
Can the President of the Methodist Church help Rabuka in answering this?
And I hope The reverend seeks forgiveness as soon as possible.
@ Kumar,,
No bro…. you are wrong here pal. God is never wrong. He is was, and will forever be correct. God never told Rabuka to overthrow the Bavadra Government.
He was merely answering the call of the evil people in the society. He used God as an excuse.
And you know what, Kumar……. God has forgiven him because Jesus is a loving God and he will forgive you if ask for it.
Yes sometimes he deceives. But he is good with a capital ‘g’
Than why doesn’t Rabuka come out say that God never told him to what he did on 14 May 1987.
I am agreeing with your statement that God is not always correct. That is, sometimes he (God) deceives people.
Kumar when you hear people tell you they talking to God-just remember there are many up there at St Giles who claim the same thing but Rabuka he was simply caught with his underpants down, so where does that leave his apology-at the same level as a hypocrite but the fact remains he is still caught with his pants down only this time he didn’t have any undies!
Graham, thank you for boldly declaring the TRUTH. It may hurt some people but it frees them from being mentally oppressed and enslaved through the lies, and living in the illusion of those who preach a false Christ and a false gospel. Who have entangled most of their members through the ways of the author of confusion. To wake them up and make them think for themselves and to search for the truth. “THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE THEM FREE”.
Thank you once again GRAHAM for using this medium to enlighten the mass.
The Happy Hindu,
Monday, wife does the Jal Paan and if you ask for meat dish, she will look at you as goddess kali. That look is enough to get you vegetarian all day….happy day nonetheless.
Tuesday, my day for Lord Hanuman Pooja. Wife thinks about meaty dish and looks at me.
My looks get her going vegetarian all day….a good day nontheless.
Wednesday, conga and cassava day….wife’s cousin and husband visits….grog and beer.
Thursday, wife’s cousin visits alone, wife does not like it…..me pretty happy…grog day.
Friday, happy family prayer day and all agreed for vegetarian dish. Happy grog day, but wife is on the lookpout for cousin.
Saturday, wife’s cousin rings. Wife says busy day and going out. Stay home and have nice jungalee murgi. Wife’s cousin drives by. Bounty Rum day..happy day.
Sunday, family gathering (qaqase and fight day)….still happy and managed to slip upper-cut to wife’s cousins husband….very happy….happy day.
Bless wife’s cousin.
Regards to all readers.
Graham, Christianity is all about the glorious Person and redemptive work of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. And He commanded His disciples to go throughout the world and preach that Gospel which is the power of God unto salvation. It is definitely NOT a matter for religious comparison! Perhaps you can properly explain the claim of Christ to be the ONLY way to God.You owe it to your readers as well as to your Methodist Church just where you stand on this issue. I said it was not a political issue I was addressing but rather your wide belief that all the religions are the same. That is contrary to the clear teaching of the apostles who preached that “neither is there any salvation in any other for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given among men whereby we may be saved.” Did Christ come just to start another religion? Sadly people like you appear to believe that and it is also true that Christendom accepts that. Being the son of a good Christian leader like your father, does not qualify you to be of an authority to challenge and twist the very clear statement of our dear Lord Jesus. If the Lord’s claim was not literal, then please explain the symbolic or whatever.The Lord paid a very precious price, His Own blood, to save mankind and you should not water it down! May the Lord’s Name be glorified. God bless Fiji.
Listen Daya Nand,
You have just crossed the red line of a secular conversation on this blog. I for one don’t friggin care if whoever’s word in whichever book, be it Quran, Ramayana or the Bible be written in blood and who said what.
Your friggin belief system is yours and yours only, I don’t care. Go to your congregation and do your preaching there or better still, I have noticed Fiji Times letters column have a lot of your likes….so do us a favour….Daya Nand….they might want to listen to your songs…..not me and a good number of reasonable people on this blogsite who need meaningful and just conversation about Fiji and its people. There are more pressing issues for the people of this country than to worry about who said what in which book and who reads what and who intreprets what from the same pages.
Oh and I have heard and seen the Indo Fijian con artists in black pants and ties also, going from one poor Fiji Indian home to another promising salvation…..that idol worshippers are devils and that the Gora (white) bosses will come from Australia, and pay for the childrens school fees and in time will live like the goras.
I believe there is an Indian branch of the Methodist Church…..my question to them is: what is your friggin stance on what your chief bloke has said?…this I wan’t to know………not some noncense on who said what and where…
Hi Chand. I only entered into this area to reply to Graham about his comments on the Person of Christ. I definitely stated “no politics.” However your reaction reveals you need a change of heart which the Lord Jesus and not Christianity can give you.It is so sad to read articles containing so much venom against individuals.Deal with politics not people. Have some positive suggestions mingled with love for Fiji. God bless.
@ Dayanand,
Oh boy….oh please please, spare me your sermon…go and preach to your big chief who is the subject of this blog.
Have some balls mate, I want to know what is the stance of the Indian circuit of the Methodist Church on this issue…and please….don’t give us the usual nonsence about politics/church, change of heart and the nonsence..or just gutless cowards preaching from a safe hole, getting “numbers” and more $15.00 so you can get a pat on the back and maybe a promotion and a bigger microphone.
A cowards sanctuary is do nothing, hide behind religion, bless others and hope that the problem will go away.
Come have balls and make a call to your boss……and then reply. Otherwise get back to your hole and don’t bother.
We have seen enough of you bigots.
Hey Chand, what is your problem? Looks like a guilty conscience over something or someone because you are so bitter. “Come unto Me” (not a church or any religion) said the Lord Jesus “and I will give you rest.” I do pray you will find that great blessing and then you yourself will become a blessing to others.I do not want to irritate you dear friend but rather see you as a wonderful blessing to the future of our beloved Fiji. And please note I am NOT a Methodist but apart from their faults like all religions, they have made many positive contributions to Fiji and will continue to do so because there are many wonderful people among them although belonging to various political parties.God bless.
@ Daya Nand,
Oh boy gimme a break…..with all the nonsence of pray and blessings and come unto me…..go preach elsewhere.
I am a realist and I think you have a problem…so when I challenge you, I have a guilty conscience…I am bitter…you can’t take a challenge..always in the comfort of not a church/not any religion……oh boy this (not a church and not a religion) freak…gimme a break…
As if some convert has the moral authority to preach to me….gimme a break…may Allah have mercy on you.
Daya Nand i am off to work when i return i will enlighten you on Christianity !
Thank you dear friend. I do acknowledge that like all other religions Christianity has its share of faults which you may like to point out to me.However there are many positives as well. Bringing civilization and transforming cannabilism,education (from which you are benefitting by having a job to go to), medicine, love and kindness and the list goes on. Please do not be sidetracked by some unworthy church leaders and politics to paint a picture which would be unreal.You may compare the impact of Christianity throughout the world where there is democracy and respect and freedom for ALL religions and see how other religions where they have authority, operate.
May God bless Fiji and lead us to decisions where we can have peace.
Yep, the impact of Christianity has been impressive. But in many ways it has become the victim of its own success. May be that’s why it has been said that every generation needs to be evangelized.
Daya Nand i am going to to enlighten you on how Christianity came about-not from what you read in the Bible but by the work of St Thomas in -Kerela in India! If you recall Thomas was known as the unbeliever (well that was coined by those who felt threatened by Thomas as he was very close to Jesus). The Church in India was not known as Christian church because there was no such Church in existence then-they were know as Nazarians! Thomas came with different message about Christ from what you read in the New Testament. After all there was no New Testament to speak of in Thomas time! But i will leave this lesson for another time! Your answer about Christianity bringing civilisation and education well you need to go do more studies -before Christianity came onto the scene there was one in India known as Askoka who had already seen the ravages of what war did and promised never to go to war again-his empire spread as far as the Bali (Bai Hindhus) and physicians and sages went as far as the China and into the middle East not to preacher but to enlighten! Gave woman more rights than man. You seem to make out that without Christianity there would be no democracy, respect for all religions etc. Here is one for you to ponder on the second largest Jews group in existence outside of Israel since Biblical times exists in Iran a muslim country. They are accepted just as Muslims are! Democracy and voting didn’t begin with the Greeks it was also a part of the Sumerian life style! The Book you now have as the New Testament didn’t just appear from no where it came about when a Roman Emperor decided to have some order be brought into the system as there were many vying for power (competeing Gods)with so many claiming they were the true followers, some the true carriers of Jesus message etc, etc! The Emperor decided once and for all to finalise this issue and in so doing elect a Diety! As there were many competing idiologies and GODS in Rome at the time. This is what is now termed the Council of Nicaea. The first general “Church Council’ sat in 325AD! The concept was to basically elect someone to be God for the Roman Empire!. So there were numerous names that came up including Jesus, Krishna and many others. You now know who was made the official Diety of the Roman Church . Today the modern day Church makes out that this was a smooth Christian Council operation believe me when you study the evidence it was brutal and violent affair (read Dean Milman) a celebrated Christian historian! Today we all called Christians. There is nothing wrong with religion its the people that have created problems no different with todays Methodist leaders in Fiji! I leave with with one thought if God wanted this earth to have 1 religion only do you seriously think any Force on this Earth or Heaven will prevent that from happening! it is in darkness that you come to appreciate the light, it is in the faces of humanity that you see God, just because you love God doesn’t mean to say you love human kind, its you experience of God that makes you love human kind and others just become your brothers & sisters! That’s the message thats missing from your Talatalas speech! His role is to unify us-do you see that happening! So kindly take that message to the your Rev in Suva! ! For as Gandhi said i am a muslim , a buddist, a christian, a jew and he gave his live for that belief but some will just label him a kai idia and some a Hindhu! Thats is what Graham is attempting to do.
Daya nand, because of your blind faith, there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. All I can say is that if the Hindus and Muslims in Fiji behaved like you do, where on earth would we all be?
Preach the gospel as much as you like. But religion is a personal thing and it’s not your right to go around bullying people in a theological sense, just as it’s not their right to bully you.
“Do unto others as you would have done unto you”. Remember that one? Evidently not.
Thank you Graham. It is evident that you “play the man instead of the ball.” I responded to your earlier comment about the Father’s house where you interpreted that to mean it to be an all-inclusive place embracing all religions etc.I have asked you to respond to the rather startling claim of the Lord Jesus that HE was THE only Way… no man comes to the Father BUT BY HIM. As well the apostles endorsed that by preaching there was no salvation in ANY OTHER name under heaven.” Surely I can express my opinion without your inference about bullying etc. Look at your harsh criticism of others with their religious and political views. Maybe you should stand as a candidate in the next elections in Fiji as you appear to believe you have all the answers. God bless Fiji.
Daya Nand, yes, “I am the way, the truth and the light. No man comes to the father except by me”. All well and good. Except that the other religions have texts that say more or less the same thing. What do you want to do? Declare your religion better than anyone else’s – as the head of the Methodist Church wants – on the basis of one biblical passage? Set off a religious conflagration to assert your own beliefs?
I repeat: We live in a multi-faith country. It ought to be marked by tolerance for people’s spiritual beliefs, not the tyranny of the bigoted mob. Your way is the path to conflict and oblivion because – as a Muslim would see it – one prophet declared himself king of the heap. To you, Jesus is King or Kings. But to others from other faiths, he’s just a second tier run-of-the-mill prophet. That’s life in a multi-faith society like Fiji and I personally don’t think it’s worth going to the barricades for.
Religious freedom means the freedom to pursue one’s own beliefs. It’s an individual thing and no-one has a right to force their beliefs on anyone else by getting the state to endorse their own brand over others.
Hi again Graham. It apears to me that you believe I am advocating a Christian State for Fiji. No, I am not. Neither am I shoving my views on people of other religions. Freedom of Religion is the individual choice of anyone under a truly democratic country. You have been very forcefully advancing your political views even to the point of attacking individuals rather harshly. That is your privilege. BUT surely I am equally free to reply to your remarks about the challenging words of our Lord Jesus. You completely ignored my request and traded blows of a political nature.I am puzzled now at the reason for Christianity to exist. If your dear father accepted the teachings of John Wesley then he would support my views about Christ.He undoubtedly served the Lord with great devotion and while possesssing a spirit of ecumenism and love for people of all races and religions, I cannot imagine him being weak on the Person and work of the Lord Jesus as the only Saviour of sinners.He would sing with deep meaning:
Rock of ages cleft for me
Let me hide myself in Thee
Let the water and the blood
From Thy riven side which flowed
Be of sin the double cure
Cleanse me from its guilt and power.
NOTHING in my hand I bring
Simply to THY CROSS I cling…..
Wash me Saviour OR I DIE”. God bless.
Why isn’t there any reponse to this from any political party, especially the SDL?
Or they are silently supporting this preacher?
It called GUTS! If they had any Voreqe would never had come to power , it was a case of all talk-some kinda remembered Kalabu & George Speight and crew! As the song say ‘some will bite the dust”
God works in mysterious ways.
A leaders words has turned a light on darkness in mens souls.
Wolves in sheeps clothing, emboldened, cloth tossed aside, raving,lusting.
It is difficult and neigh impossible to present an opposing argument to anyone who refuses to step out of the context of a particular premise.
Argue with a Christian or any religious fundamentalist for that matter and he/she is blind to any alternative points of view.
This man purports to speak for the Methodist Church in Fiji and so he should as he holds the highest office of the Church in Fiji. If there are fissures within the church, and I assume there will be a few, because of his controversial public statements, I venture to opine that the majority will drown out the voices of the moderates. It is an inescapable fact the leadership of the Methodist Church in Fiji has long been hijacked by a strong ethno-nationalist faction who seem to have the loudest voice, and they have free reign because their power bases, the every day congregation are in the majority and enable them.
The Presidency of the Church is not decided by a true democratic system. Like many like-structured organisations, it presents a sham election to its followers to ligitimise the selection process, when in actual fact it has all been pre-determined through backroom deals. We got what we paid for.
I feel that it is time the world body leadership of the Methodist Church own this budding ethno-religious ticking time bomb called the Methodist Church in Fiji and intervene in some form. If left to fester, it is possible that the current Fiji Government may just outright ban the the Church altogether from Fiji a la the once engraved in stone GCC. Too far fetched?…ask the GCC for their opinion. If one pillar of the iTaukei society can be taken out so easily, it stands to reason that another can be too. Food for thought.
I leave you with a favourite quote of mine…. make of it what you will.
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect.”
James Madison
Lilo The Rev Peter Davies if i recall wrote(spoke) to show his displease at how the Methodist Church in Fiji was aligning itself with divisive elements at the 1987 coup! Did you think the likes of Rev Lasaro even listened. You think the Methodist Church in Fiji cares about others opinion in where they taking the Church- i have a very close friend who is a Methodist and he gives a lot of his time into fund raising etc for the Church. His opinion is brushed asided when he speaks about the continual fund raising & pressure put on the people by the Church. Every now and he gets word back from their Talatala that the Church Elders question his beliefs as he poses too much questions to the hierachy of the Church which is amost like disobedience! His answer tell them if they not happy with my questions to sack me from the Church! Your call about the world body Methodist do something they tried, several times! The Church has tasted th power of politics and boy do they love it? Ask Rev Josateki Koroi what they wanted to do to him with & his family at their Navua Farm- when he was threatened to shut up by hired thugs or else! Thats how low some of these Church Leaders have gone.
thanks for the comments Lilo….great food for thought!
has anyone read the Fiji Sun article from this group called the “Lion of Judah” calling the PM to claim the title of King of Fiji…..the funniest shit I have read today. And a former MP calling for the current government to stay in power after the constitution….get over yourself…someone give this man a lesson on Constitutions, Elections, Democracy, Legitimacy and the right of the people to elect their representatives….if you want to stay in power then try and get elected….you aren’t actually entitled to the seat of power….earn it from the people first!
Fedup i get your point but some in Fiji you actually can say they are “fedup’-yes fedup from the Chiefs taking them for rides all these years, politicians taking them for granted when election looms? Maybe they so fedup they now see real light where they initially thought was ‘light’! Put yoursef in their position-all promises but no roads, all promises but no services, all promises but no help-then along comes Voreqe and you just complain about the same same old , same old and he says ‘there will be a person her on Monday to survey the road 3 weeks alter the PWD are now working on a new road! Wouldn’t you as simple village just say why can’t you stay in power Voreqe, after all you get things done for us and who cares about democracy when we will get the same old chiefs and the same old politicians. You see democtacy is ok but when these is no food on the table you might as well as be in China, money, power etc , etc! Well its one persons thoughts so don’t take it to seriously–last time i looked the democracies around the world were relying on a non-democratic country to get them out of trouble-yes with money-bit of a hypocrite? No ? Dri yani!
Yeah VB isn’t perfect so relax…a lot of people still have no food on the table…cheap tricks and quick fixes are common between politicians and VB…elected or not…the only difference is that at the end of the day politicians are held accountable and VB gets to go away scott free. Chiefs or not there is no place for a King of Fiji!…time to get a grip on reality because the sun is not shining out of his arse!
Nor out of yours!
no shit sherlock!
Dear CHAND, I do not need the mercy of your Allah for 2 reasons:
1. There is no evidence he is merciful. His followers murder praising him.. his followers who are termed moderates do not condemn terrorist acts etc.But do give any evidence of him being merciful.
2. I have experienced the mercy of God which was so vividly demonstrated in the cruel sacrifice for sins oft he Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible is full of the mercies of God.
Anyway dear Chand I am not preaching to you but simply sharing some good news which you are in desperate need of. God bless Fiji.
Daya Nand you the only here that just found out about the “good news”! Sa vo sara la o iko, we were not converted we just believed, problem you have is you like a little kid that just found out he has a “play thing”, instead of making out people here are desperate , maybe you are desperate to preach to us-go to the Methodist in Suva and preach to them they are in dire need of a preacher and give them the ‘good news for modern humans’ from grubsheet! Just remember don’t plagarise anything we have written and also make sure to give credits to those authors on this site!
The next session with you will require a Consultation fees and i will charge by the minute if you require herbs for you ailmen like drau ni salato thats an extra charge! You can call Rev Waqairatu up for an appointment!
Isa my friend there is no need to be so annoyed. Surely we can share views without becoming personal. As I have just stated to Graham Davis to “play the ball and not the man.” And thanks for the lesson on Christianity. I do appreciate there are different historical records on Christianity and some were written to discredit it and it is up to the individual to accept what he wants to correct or strengthen his views.What you cannot deny is that you owe your civilization, education and progress in this modern world to Christianity maybe even through the Methodist/Catholic church of which I am NOT a member.God bless Fiji.
I can give you more records to search & read but it would be useless , i not here to discredit the Chruch but to show how the reigion of Christianity came about-as opposed to reading the Bible and assume alls correct-they were written by Human Beings inspired they may be, they still Humans. I did not become civilised nor my forfatthers because of the coming of Christianity! Your snide remarks betry you true feelings if you think you have the answers please live you life as such and leave as to do the same. You trying to push an agenda also similar to the Church Leaders in Fiji. Here ends your Consultation-its no longer FREE! Doce!
“THE TRUTH HURTS” Let us continue to live in love irrespective of our religious and political convictions. We are all aiming for the best for our beloved Fiji. God bless.
Daya Nand,
You are sick mate and you need help…..and maybe an education. I don’t need any preaching from a convert.
And dear readers, we had focussed on the leadership and maybe rightly so. And we have focussed on (lets be real here), mostly i-taukeis who make up the majority of the Methodist (and believe me there are a good fellow beings that I have had the opportunity to grow up and work with…..people with courage…Jukebox…mate.). But what about the Indian circuit of the Methodist Church and hangers on like Daya Nand….what about these fanatical scums….are they pleasing their masters so they can get a pat on their backs…….like a lapping dog of the mainstream organisation.
This religious scum needs to wake up to reality, that fanatism and blasphemy will not be tolerated. I too have friends and relatives of many christain denominations and they are no lap dogs to anyone.
I don’t have any animosity towards the Methodist President, may be he is just a bit misguided, or maybe political.
I have a problem with religious converts…loud mouth scums who would convert for material benefits and cast stones to others…..these are dangerous people for they can sell anybody for material benefits……and use Jesus as a cover to hide their cowardise….yes I have a problem with you Daya Nand or is it Dave Nancy.
Chand, you appear to be a very confused person.Just go over what you have shared and note your tone and contradictions. May you be enlightened. God bless.
Damn right Watisoni!
Wow this is the first time I come across this website and reading this article/comments.
Thank you Aggie! I am a Christian, brought up in the Methodist church and became born-again at a Methodist youth camp. I consider myself simply as Christian.
What I can say about this article:
Christians themselves find it hard to speak about anything in love. Christians themselves find it hard to see beyond their own prejudices. Christians themselves do exactly as the world does and write articles that do more damage than good just so they feel justified in their own eyes and intellect and supposed heritage of faith.
From experience and constant reminders, the bible sounds true warning in that we should not put our trust in man. The Methodist executives have shown bad example and leadership for so long their names and the word ‘Methodist’ is become an affront to Christianity and the whole nation. But if we know God, He has not abandoned the ‘Methodists’ and many are they who belong to Him.
My family are all born-again Christians. We love to study the Word. We love to discuss the bible, Christianity, other religions, politics – just about every topic under the sun. We love to argue and have animated and long debates. We are almost always never on the same side (except for the 10 commandments)! We never end an argument full of animosity and hatred and self justification. We argue the issue but never use our words and cleverness to wield a weapon to insult and hurt each other just so we can win and glory in our intellectual superiority of facts and reasons.The reason this is so is simply because we love each other.
Christians are called by God to distinguish themselves by their love for each other. Anyone reading this site would take great delight at the way Christians persist in demonizing other Christians with views not in-line with their own.
In my family, I still have not been able to convince everyone that Fiji should be declared a Christian country. But am I an extremist and hater of democracy? Absolutely not! What it does show is that everyone in my family are democratically entitled, and feel secure in their own view – without fear of name calling or an outpouring of hate. Do I identify myself with Waqairatu? Absolutely not! I do not know him personally but I have my own reasons why I do not like him. He is not my Spiritual leader – never was and never ever will be. Again the bible clearly tells us that it is a curse to put our trust in man. For me this also translates to put no trust in any pastor – past, present or future, or anyone who appeals to such ‘spiritual’ heritage.
As Christians we must love others as God has loved us, and we ourselves. We must act and speak in love. We must write in love. If what we write merely shows how learned and/or how clever we are then we merely show how much godly counsel we lack. If the fruit of our labour is strife or animosity or hatred or prejudice, then we have crossed over to do the work of crucifying Christ and looking with contempt at the blood and tears of the missionaries who sacrificially gave of their lives to bring the love of God to Fiji and the Pacific peoples.
Based on what we see today in so far as religion and the “nuts” that run them is it any wonder that more and more people are transcending religion and becoming atheists. By its very nature belonging to a certain blind belief based on a book which has no evidence that it was written by a higher power other then an imperfect human is discriminatory on it own. It segregates a species based on beliefs and traditions and blinds us to the fact that we all eat, shit,procreate, get old and die. In a nutshell we are humans. While this is the reality of the world and neither i nor the many atheists in the world will be able to change this for sometime yet, it is a farcical existence and the world is far poorer morally due the existence of religion. For those who will try to argue against my point just ask yourself one question. Through the ages till today how many men women and children have been killed in the name of faith. Millions is the answer. The President of the Methodist church is a fine example of a leader who will use his beliefs to kill maim and force his way on others if given the opportunity. It is time the government writes a degree that idiots like this guys be locked up and the key thrown into the sea.
Nothing wrong with religious faith. Or God. Its the people – humans. Individual and or corporate. Going over to the atheist group won’t do much good. You take your human baggage/garbage with you. Your reaction is valid however. Happened on a grander scale in the French and Russian revolutions where the politicization of the church in those cultures led to its rejection. Its not easy getting the balance right – being “in” the world and “not of it”.
“God is not always correct”. I take your point that it is the humans that god apparently created that is the problem and nothing is wrong with religion. Does the Bible and the Quran not say that men was created in the image of god. Ironic isn’t it. I am not an atheist. I believe in a super being i just don’t see how he could belong to any of the major religions of this world based on current and past history. I think mankind was a miserably failed experiment for him. We are the “Frankenstein s” of this planet.
I think all the problem here is the presence of Indians in Feejee. With only 37% left now, why cant the ‘Fijian’ people get rid of them and solve of the problem. Basically Feejee’s policies from post 1987 coup is all about apartheid.
And then, they can do whatever they like, such as having Sunday as a holiday for prayer session.
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Edward Gibbon
what else can we say.
Good one Vinny
@Ali Yep, its reasonable for one, on seeing enough ‘Frankenstein’ individuals or religions about, to come to the conclusion that their manufacturer may have got it wrong. And so create an alternative god or theory. But there are people about who are not ‘Frankensteins’, people who have embodied the best of religion. These serve as torches of hope in times of discouragement. There is not need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, be it people or religions. Or God. But if we have done so then keep a window open just in case there is a change of mind. A more pressing reason is simply the fact that we have to deal with the realities of our day ie. a majority of people to whom religion and God is no fairytale.
Graham,
Au sa rere dina ena topic qo.
Perhaps its a good thing you brought it up ……… or perhaps you just responded to the Reverend’s comments.
Should Fiji be declared a Christian State?
Well I really have to think very hard of this one ……. judging from all the comments in here. ………Hope I be ready when Election comes to decide where I stand on this.
Well for me now………. I just concentrate on allowing God to live in me and listen to more debates of this by the various people, the media and Grubsheet. And very much hope I choose the right foundation.
Anyway, thanks for your comments and views………….much appreciated and want you to know I like reading them………. very deep man!
I also like those views of people who oppose your stand……….very intelligent and deep thinkers too. Much appreciated guys!
God bless you all and especially my beloved Fiji.
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this topic-makes all of realise that we may be different in many ways but we can still live together as people, not impose our beliefs on others as one of the sages of old said ‘unity in diversity” . Its left to thoe who lead us to do their part in unifying us.God Bless
@ Vinny Gibbons was a historian (English) and a son of the Enlightenment period – a time when the old order was on the way out. And for our purposes here, the Church (Catholic France) was politicized to the point it was said by radicals who wanted change – “strangle the last king with the guts of the last priest”. Enter the French Revolution!!
However, this was also a time of revival. Edward Gibbons was born a year before John Wesley had his “Aldersgate experience”, and what an experience that turned out to be. “I look on the world as my parish” said Wesley and indeed it became that, including the isles of the South Seas.
It is said that what John Wesley and others like him did in England prevented it from going the way of France. It was a revolution of a different kind.
Gibbons great achievement was writing the history of the Roman Empire’s decline and fall. So he may have been repeating what the first century Roman statesman and philosopher Seneca (the younger) said “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”
Seneca for a time was a trusted advisor of Emperor Nero though he lost his life (suicide) by order of Nero. Nero’s Rome of course was the empire one in which the apostle Paul went about his missionary journeys and was to meet his end. Some of the worst persecutions of the early Christians were ordered by emperor Nero.
It is an interesting quote. I’m more comfortable with it coming out of the mouth of Seneca then Gibbons.
@ Vinny Gibbon was a historian (English) and a son of the Enlightenment period – a time when the old order was on the way out. And for our purposes here, the Church (Catholic France) was politicized to the point it was said by radicals who wanted change – “strangle the last king with the guts of the last priest”. Enter the French Revolution!!
However, this was also a time of revival. Edward Gibbon was born a year before John Wesley had his “Aldersgate experience”, and what an experience that turned out to be. “I look on the world as my parish” said Wesley and indeed it became that, including the isles of the South Seas.
It is said that what John Wesley and others like him did in England prevented it from going the way of France. It was a revolution of a different kind.
Gibbon great achievement was writing the history of the Roman Empire’s decline and fall. So he may have been repeating what the first century Roman statesman and philosopher Seneca (the younger) said “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”
Seneca for a time was a trusted advisor of Emperor Nero though he lost his life (suicide) by order of Nero. Nero’s Rome of course was the empire one in which the apostle Paul went about his missionary journeys and was to meet his end. Some of the worst persecutions of the early Christians were ordered by emperor Nero.
It is an interesting quote. I’m more comfortable with it coming out of the mouth of Seneca then Gibbon.
readers , i think the latest show by the methodists can be classified into what intelligence oorganisations all over the world have uncovered that the real threat to world security is fhe clash between islamist extremists and christians and not western democracies against muslims
The stand of the Christian Right during GW Bush’s tenure in the White House certainly stoked the fires of hatred between Muslims and Christians. And what a disaster Bush’s wars turned out to be. How quickly the sympathy for the US following the 9/11 disasters turned to anger when the US went into Iraq. One wonders how many ordinary Muslims turned extremist as a result of that quagmire of a war that Iraq turned out to be. With the Internet and TV it was possible to have a ringside seat to what was happening leading up to and after the Invasion of Iraq. What struck me was how some genuine Christians could be swayed so easily by the rhetoric that came from the mouth of the pro war propaganda machine. And the style of secretary of Defence (Rumsfeld) was not unlike Robert MacNamara during the Vietnam War.
I think that in the eyes of the non-Western world, the West’s religion is Christianity and so when Western nations behave badly Christianity shares the blame. And yet in the West, Christianity has lost much of its influence. That’s what comes with modernisation and the secularisation of societies.
The positive aspect of Christianity in Fiji is it remains influential so that when the leader of one denomination gets up and speaks there are not many left seating on the fence – most in not all have had something to say in response.
The challenge of Christianity in Fiji is to get the tension right – the test of doing the Lord’s work without doing it the world’s way. In this way there is no area of life (or level of society) that Christianity is barred from entering.
@ ‘God is not always Correct’
Forgive me Sir – but just cannot hold back and really need to ask you this: Why do you have a strange name?
Is it your god is not always correct? ………… this must be so?
Well…….anyway , hope you wouldn’t mind if I say this:
My God is always correct – and He never fails. NEVER my dear Sir!
Anyway, Sir, thanks for your very interesting postings – hope I didn’t offend you. Its just that I’ve never come across someone who wants to call himself such a strange name. No offense, Sir. Just a first time for me.
Anyway …………Happy days, Sir!!!
@Riverside. It was Kumar (Sept 12 @ 0947 hrs) who wrote “God is not always correct” to which I responded “Yes sometimes he deceives….” I think he (Kumar) was more interested in Rabuka than he was in the character of God. Anyway that’s where the name came from. I would prefer “God sometimes deceives” because it reminds me of the man ‘Whom Jehovah appointed'(that’s what the name Jeremiah means) complaining to God saying “Lord you have deceived me and I was deceived”.I’m not against God or religion.
Thanks for your reply.
Perhaps its too much to ask – maybe its a good time to change the name.
Reason is simple: The current name seems to give the notion that you have something against God – and want to bring disrepute to Him.
For e.g. the name ‘ Graham is a sell out’ gives the reader the impression that his prime purpose is to discredit Graham.
I think you have very good observations of things and makes good and valid comments. It’s your name that distracts readers from wanting to see the main points of your arguments and the feeling of not wanting to agree with you.
Please accept my most humble apologies for airing this perhaps irrelevant issue – it’s just that God is very important to me. And I believe a name change will really work for you.
This little issue I think was echoed too I think by Shakespeare when he wrote: ‘What’s in a Name?”
Anyway, Cheers and blessed day to you my dear Sir.
@riverside. I think I understand what you’re saying.
But, you are courageous to assume that the ‘God’ I am referring to is yours as well. You yourself raised doubts on this when you said “Is it your god is not always correct? ………… this must be so?”.
Different faiths have their ‘God’ so why should you be offended about what the ‘God’ I’m referring to is like? Allow me to give you this advice about your ‘God’ – don’t assume to know everything about him ie. don’t put him into a box. The day you can figure him out is the day he no longer is God but a creation of your mind and experience.
In case you are still wondering – the ‘God’ I refer to is not the one you call ‘God’. If he was you wouldn’t be in discomfort.
Ya, but Rabuka told us that God came and visited him in 1987 whilst Rabuka was in his tavioka patch at the back of the Officers Mess in QEB n God tols him to coup Bavadra because he was not acting in the interests of indigenous Fijians. And many people believed Rabuka. The very same people now pushing for a Christian state.
@Kathy. If you believed Mr. Rabuka at the time, I can understand why you are finding it difficult to reconcile what he said then with what he said and did later. That ‘patch’ of history cannot be easily erased from the minds of those who were there at the coalface.
In the middle of this muddle is religion (christianity). So its reasonable that an alternative to a christian state should be sought. There is a reluctance to repeat certain aspects of history. The experience may have been so traumatic for some that the whole religion thing may have been chucked out the window. Fair enough. I just don’t think a secular state is neutral.
@ ‘G is not always correct’.
Thank you for your reassuring comments.
For the record please note that I don’t know everything about my God – but something very true about Him that I do believe and so are other millions of Christians around the world – my God is ALWAYS correct. Humans make mistakes not my God.
I do respect your religion very much – whatever it is – and my God had mentioned to those who believe Him to be filled with love, respect and tolerance. It’s for this reason that I have to love and respect all people regardless of what race/religion they belong to.
After pondering on this issue for some time, I think Graham is correct on the notion that we need to tolerate each others religion – this I believe is a principle originally from the teachings of Christianity.
I agree with you on the notion that Fiji needs to be a secular state.
Perhaps for the sake of the Methodist Church it may be a good idea for them to change their stand from ‘Christian State’ to just: – the Constitution be mentioning that Fiji was originally established on Christian principles.This I hope would not mean that Christianity is above other religions but just information for our future generations that this land was created on this important foundation.
This way I think, the Methodist Church’s position can be effectively shifted.
Anyway, I think the USA, Great Britain, Australia, NZ, etc do have something in their laws to prove that their great nation although are secular states but were founded on Christian principles. Evidences to prove these may be readily available in the Internet.
So, ‘G is not always correct’ – wishing you all the best with your name and hope your name will not be a burden to you.
@riverside. “Thank you for your reassuring comments.”
I was trying to correct a misunderstanding.
“For the record please note that I don’t know everything about my God – but something very true about Him that I do believe and so are other millions of Christians around the world – my God is ALWAYS correct. Humans make mistakes not my God.”
Good, I’m pleased for you and the millions like you around the world. Just remember it’s YOUR God you’re referring to.
“I do respect your religion very much – whatever it is – and my God had mentioned to those who believe Him to be filled with love, respect and tolerance. It’s for this reason that I have to love and respect all people regardless of what race/religion they belong to.”
I understand. It would be more accurate to say that you would LIKE to respect my beliefs very much. It’s clearly been and still is a struggle for you just trying to get through the door of my beliefs ie. the name by which I go by.
“After pondering on this issue for some time, I think Graham is correct on the notion that we need to tolerate each others religion – this I believe is a principle originally from the teachings of Christianity.”
Wonderful. And now that we know where the other stands we can get back to the main issue of this discussion. It good to see that you are now making up your mind on the issue having thought long and hard about it. I’m a bit more cautious about the alternative being put forward. I don’t think a secular state is neutral, vague and varied though its definition may be.
“I agree with you on the notion that Fiji needs to be a secular state.”
Where did you get the notion that I agree with Fiji becoming a secular state? Clearly the mistake is mine when I said, “So it’s reasonable that an alternative to a Christian state should be sought.” What I meant was that going the way of a secular state would probably be the conclusion that reasonable minded people would arrive at. I wasn’t including myself necessarily.
“Perhaps for the sake of the Methodist Church it may be a good idea for them to change their stand from ‘Christian State’ to just: – the Constitution be mentioning that Fiji was originally established on Christian principles.This I hope would not mean that Christianity is above other religions but just information for our future generations that this land was created on this important foundation”.
I think that Christianity is above other religions simply because your Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. As to the conduct of his kingdoms citizenry on earth, individuals and at the corporate level, that’s a different story. Sometimes good, other times bad.
We need to be sensible. Just because a few extremist fly planes into skyscrapers doesn’t mean that their religion needs to outlawed. In the same way, just because some Christians behave badly, that is no reason to right-off the claims of their king. Or water down the Gospel to something it is not.
This way I think, the Methodist Church’s position can be effectively shifted.
Let’s be practical. How about writing a respectful letter or putting in a submission to the commission. Or setting aside a day to fast and pray.
“Anyway, I think the USA, Great Britain, Australia, NZ, etc do have something in their laws to prove that their great nation although are secular states but were founded on Christian principles. Evidences to prove these may be readily available in the Internet.”
Intentionally or otherwise you have described what I think a secular state accomplishes eventually – nations founded on Christian principles. Nothing more. That’s about as far as Christianity’s influence goes – establishing some principles that people may not be aware of and if they did wouldn’t care much about them either. I’m not of the view that the scope of mission of the Christian church was confined to only certain areas of life. I believe that the missionaries that entered Fiji in the early days did so to turn that world ‘upside down’ and inside out. To a great extent they did – putting the old religions and the old ways to the sword etc. No sector or level of society was spared.
I’m for that kind of religion or Christianity, not one that leaves a few good principles enshrined in law. Secularisation has seen to that (the latter) and with great effect in the nations you regard as great (US, UK, Aus, NZ). You notice how the ‘big two’ nations in the south pacific are Western, the most modernized or secularised, and with a Christian heritage? I don’t think that’s an accident. These are the two countries apart from the UK that sent many a missionary (Methodist) to Fiji. When the religion that made the West makes an idol out of its creation (i.e. the modern world), that idol will turn against it and crush it.
Think of the way Oz and NZ are presently treating Fiji? They seem to lack wisdom and understanding. But then you can’t knock down the pillars that hold the platform on which you are standing, without being brought down with it. The stripping away of Christian influences through secularisation has and is doing that. What remains are two nations whose sense of judgement has been greatly impaired. Yet Fiji for all its internal challenges displays an instinctive ability to do well (that’s an understatement) on the global stage. It has not yet discarded the foundations on which it was built. Secularisation will see to that eventually if it continues to be embraced uncritically. Now is this what you wish for your beloved Fiji in 50 years’ time?
“So, ‘G is not always correct’ – wishing you all the best with your name and hope your name will not be a burden to you.”
My name is clearly a burden to you. But let me finish on a different note: secularisation is already in our midst and has been for quite a while. So Fiji in that sense is already a secular state. The fight needs to be directed at the secularisation process that robs religion (whatever it may be) of its essence. And that is a huge ask. Almost impossible really. It may be upsetting but this secular state thing is already in our minds – a mindset. You notice how you can get through a week with very little reference or need of God? Or he is confined to the Sunday or bible study or funeral? Or that your experiences of God are during a rousing chorus sing-a-along and not at the office desk? The world of the five senses becomes more and more the real world and the world outside of that becomes less real and so more irrelevant. Even worse is that the religious person when attempting to solve issues does so using that mindset. We are in the world and attempting to address issues in the world’s way. In it and of it. But there is hope.
@riverside. “Thank you for your reassuring comments.”
I was trying to correct a misunderstanding.
“For the record please note that I don’t know everything about my God – but something very true about Him that I do believe and so are other millions of Christians around the world – my God is ALWAYS correct. Humans make mistakes not my God.”
Good, I’m pleased for you and the millions like you around the world. Just remember it’s YOUR God you’re referring to.
“I do respect your religion very much – whatever it is – and my God had mentioned to those who believe Him to be filled with love, respect and tolerance. It’s for this reason that I have to love and respect all people regardless of what race/religion they belong to.”
I understand. It would be more accurate to say that you would LIKE to respect my beliefs very much. It’s clearly been and still is a struggle for you just trying to get through the door of my beliefs ie. the name by which I go by.
“After pondering on this issue for some time, I think Graham is correct on the notion that we need to tolerate each others religion – this I believe is a principle originally from the teachings of Christianity.”
Wonderful. And now that we know where the other stands we can get back to the main issue of this discussion. It good to see that you are now making up your mind on the issue having thought long and hard about it. I’m a bit more cautious about the alternative being put forward. I don’t think a secular state is neutral, vague and varied though its definition may be.
“I agree with you on the notion that Fiji needs to be a secular state.”
Where did you get the notion that I agree with Fiji becoming a secular state? Clearly the mistake is mine when I said, “So it’s reasonable that an alternative to a Christian state should be sought.” What I meant was that going the way of a secular state would probably be the conclusion that reasonable minded people would arrive at. I wasn’t including myself necessarily.
“Perhaps for the sake of the Methodist Church it may be a good idea for them to change their stand from ‘Christian State’ to just: – the Constitution be mentioning that Fiji was originally established on Christian principles.This I hope would not mean that Christianity is above other religions but just information for our future generations that this land was created on this important foundation”.
I think that Christianity is above other religions simply because your Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. As to the conduct of his kingdoms citizenry on earth, individuals and at the corporate level, that’s a different story. Sometimes good, other times bad.
We need to be sensible. Just because a few extremist fly planes into skyscrapers doesn’t mean that their religion needs to outlawed. In the same way, just because some Christians behave badly, that is no reason to right-off the claims of their king. Or water down the Gospel to something it is not.
“This way I think, the Methodist Church’s position can be effectively shifted.”
Let’s be practical. How about writing a respectful letter or putting in a submission to the commission. Or setting aside a day to fast and pray.
“Anyway, I think the USA, Great Britain, Australia, NZ, etc do have something in their laws to prove that their great nation although are secular states but were founded on Christian principles. Evidences to prove these may be readily available in the Internet.”
Intentionally or otherwise you have described what I think a secular state accomplishes eventually – nations founded on Christian principles. Nothing more. That’s about as far as Christianity’s influence goes – establishing some principles that people may not be aware of and if they did wouldn’t care much about them either. I’m not of the view that the scope of mission of the Christian church was confined to only certain areas of life. I believe that the missionaries that entered Fiji in the early days did so to turn that world ‘upside down’ and inside out. To a great extent they did – putting the old religions and the old ways to the sword etc. No sector or level of society was spared.
I’m for that kind of religion or Christianity, not one that leaves a few good principles enshrined in law. Secularisation has seen to that (the latter) and with great effect in the nations you regard as great (US, UK, Aus, NZ). You notice how the ‘big two’ nations in the south pacific are Western, the most modernized or secularised, and with a Christian heritage? I don’t think that’s an accident. These are the two countries apart from the UK that sent many a missionary (Methodist) to Fiji. When the religion that made the West makes an idol out of its creation (i.e. the modern world), that idol will turn against it and crush it.
Think of the way Oz and NZ are presently treating Fiji? They seem to lack wisdom and understanding. But then you can’t knock down the pillars that hold the platform on which you are standing, without being brought down with it. The stripping away of Christian influences through secularisation has and is doing that. What remains are two nations whose sense of judgement has been greatly impaired. Yet Fiji for all its internal challenges displays an instinctive ability to do well (that’s an understatement) on the global stage. It has not yet discarded the foundations on which it was built. Secularisation will see to that eventually if it continues to be embraced uncritically. Now is this what you wish for your beloved Fiji in 50 years’ time?
“So, ‘G is not always correct’ – wishing you all the best with your name and hope your name will not be a burden to you.”
My name is clearly a burden to you. But let me finish on a different note: secularisation is already in our midst and has been for quite a while. So Fiji in that sense is already a secular state. The fight needs to be directed at the secularisation process that robs religion (whatever it may be) of its essence. And that is a huge ask. Almost impossible really. It may be upsetting but this secular state thing is already in our minds – a mindset. You notice how you can get through a week with very little reference or need of God? Or he is confined to the Sunday or bible study or funeral? Or that your experiences of God are during a rousing chorus sing-a-along and not at the office desk? The world of the five senses becomes more and more the real world and the world outside of that becomes less real and so more irrelevant. Even worse is that the religious person when attempting to solve issues does so using that mindset. We are in the world and attempting to address issues in the world’s way. In it and of it. But there is hope.
Thanks for your comment ‘God is not always Correct’.
Your analysis is very impressive. Your knowledge of the Bible and history is equally impressive.
Perhaps one day then you’ll understand.
As for now – each time you use that name – I think you’ll think of my comment. Hope the thought won’t be like burning charcoals.
Good luck with your name, my dear Sir. That is my last comment on this issue.
The capital ‘G’ in front of God should change to ‘g’ to distinguish which god he is referring to.
Thus: ‘god is not always correct’ – so he not offend Christians, Muslims and Jews.